Deep Breath

[llywela]

Doctor Whoooooo!

Ooh, I liked it. I haven't been able to say that about a new episode of Doctor Who in a while now. It told a character story and dealt with consequences. Clara felt more like a real person than she has in a long time. Even the Paternoster gang didn't break my suspension of disbelief quite as much as they usually do.

I like Capaldi's Doctor, this is a promising start. His post-regeneration mania reminded me of the Fourth Doctor's. I laughed in all the right places and felt touched in all the right places.

So far so good.

Comments

[byslantedlight.livejournal.com]

Snap! (Ha - right down to the opening lines of our posts, almost... *vbg*) And yes - Clara did, for the first time feel more like an actual real person! She wobbled a bit at the end, I thought, but even that was mostly redeemed. See, I just think she's far more Victorian than she is contemporary - they should have left her with Vastra and Jenny for a while (I keep forgetting they're called the Paternoster gang).

It took me a few minutes to feel that the Doctor was going to work for me - but then it always does actually, and I think they did his wobble well so that we felt it right along with him, rather than just on our own...

Yeay - so far so good! *vbg*

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I think the mangled origins of the character are a big part of what's damaged Clara so much. The human-Dalek in Asylum of the Dalek was not originally intended to be a Clara splinter - that idea only came about later, and was grafted back onto that character in retrospect. The full-time companion was originally intended to be Victorian Clara, who wasn't going to die, but then the team decided that having a historical companion would require commitment to telling a character story, and that was too much like hard work. So the full-time companion became a modern girl and the splinter idea came about, but all of a sudden they had two previous versions of the character who had to be grafted onto a third, who was meant to be the original...and those characters just didn't fit together terribly well. And Clara suffered as a result - as well as suffering from poor writing in general, because season 7 was hopelessly plot-centric, with very little time or space for character. I saw posts from Neil Gaiman on tumblr long before his episode aired, where he basically said that he wrote the companion role as generic because he sees them all as pretty much interchangeable, and I found that very worrying, because although they all fill much the same role they should always be distinct as individuals!

So yes. Clara has been a big problem. I thought this episode gave her more depth than she's had in a long time, possibly ever, and found that promising. Her wobble over the regeneration didn't bother me this time round - I already ranted about that in the Christmas special and have now made my peace with it! It's Moffat's fault for giving interviews claiming that Clara knows the Doctor better than anyone because she's known every version of him, which is blatantly not true because it has been clearly shown on screen that she has no memory of those splinter experiences. So with that in mind, her struggle with his regeneration made a lot more sense, and I was glad that the issue of her flirtatious relationship with the 11th Doctor was directly addressed and put to bed, so to speak. I didn't even mind Vastra saying that Clara knows the Doctor better than anyone because she didn't mean everyone ever, but that Clara was with the Doctor up to his regeneration, she knows who he was immediately prior, and that's what matters in the aftermath.

Also, excellent location-spotting in this episode! Fun fact: the scene where the Doctor and Clara discuss going for coffee or chips was filmed on the same street where the Doctor and Rose decided to go for chips after seeing the end of the world! Also, I saw them filming that scene. :D And 'heaven' in that last scene was the Pompeiian Garden at Dyffryn, which also featured heavily in the episode with two Amys. :D

Promising start - let's hope for more in this vein!

[sherrilina.livejournal.com]

What character story did it tell, Clara's? :s What consequences?

I'm glad you enjoyed it--frankly it didn't seem any different to me than the last few seasons--just as incoherent and random, with just as many jokes about nakedness and sex, and the typical recycling of past storylines (e.g. the villain). I didn't understand why the Doctor seemed to have amnesia and was all over the place, and they never really explained. Once he began acting more normal and bantering with Clara it was better...ai'm glad he got to keep his accent.

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

It was a character story - it followed the characters and their emotions in the wake of the Doctor's regeneration, spent time with them and allowed them to react, instead of jumping manically from plot point to plot point and simply telling character emotion instead of taking time to show it. As for consequences - the regeneration, Clara's reaction to it, the Doctor's reaction to it, Clara and the Paternosters reacting to each other, etc.

The Doctor's amnesia was caused by his regeneration mania - watch a few of his previous regenerations, he's always pretty loopy afterward, and this wasn't just a normal regeneration but a whole new cycle, so extreme mania afterward was to be expected. Yes, there were silly jokes, but they didn't feel as shoehorned in or as inappropriate as they sometimes have (no one was actually naked this time!) - there are plenty of nits that could be picked, there always are in any piece of television, but there were no deal-breakers, for me, and that's what I care about. The story actually dealt with a few issues I've complained about - such as Clara's flirtatious relationship with the 11th Doctor. It examined her relationship with the Doctor - or the relationship she thought she had with the Doctor - in a way that's been sorely lacking pretty much since she met him. Too little too late, perhaps, but it came as a relief to me. It also touched on her abrupt transition from nanny to teacher and showed that it wasn't all plain sailing, which also came as a relief to me because it makes her feel more like a person and less like Mary Poppins, practically perfect in every way, and allowed her to learn from a past mistake. She was allowed to act and react as Clara, rather than being wedged into whatever the writer thought would be 'cool' for 'the companion', which has been my biggest complaint through her tenure - they wrote her as a person rather than generic perfect companion, for once. And there were some lovely subtle little character moments for the new Doctor, attempting to find himself in his mania.

Recycling past villains doesn't bother me, as long as it doesn't happen too often. At least this was a villain we've only seen once before, years ago, rather than one that pops up every year. My only real complaint was the final scene (filmed at Dyffryn, in the Pompeian Garden, last seen in the ep with the two Amys) - I'm not convinced I'm going to like the story arc with this Missy character, because seriously...a mysterious female we've never seen before who calls the Doctor her boyfriend and acts like she's known him forever? Yeah. That could almost be calculated to get my goat. But apart from that, yes, I liked it, I thought it was a big improvement over season 7 and hope the rest of the new season continues to improve.

Fun fact: the last scene with the Doctor and Clara agreeing to go for coffee (or chips) was filmed on the same street where the Doctor and Rose went for chips after witnessing the end of the world. I saw them filming that scene!

[sherrilina.livejournal.com]

What do you mean by "not a normal regeneration but a whole cycle?" The fact that he got unlimited regenerations from the TLs in the Christmas special? (Still annoyed they went with that instead of the line in the SJA epp). In any case, given how all of the other regenerations in New Who have gone (always knowing who he was with no disorientation, including the Master) they should have had at least one line in explanation (e.g. "This happens sometimes when he regenerates.")

Yes, they did spend time on character reactions, but I guess I just didn't think much of them--like I really disliked Vastra railing on Clara for being shallow (even if it turned out she was just trying to provoke her) when a) she sacrificed herself so utterly for the Doctor by splintering herself to save him, which should have been mentioned and b) given how wacky he was acting I would be concerned too about whether he was the proper doctor. (And also there is the whole "I've seen all the regenerations" thing that doesn't gel with this reaction).

I also felt the episode was faaar too long--I think it would have been better as a regular length epp.

ITA about the woman at the end--I sincerely hope she isn't River 2.0. (Again, I hate how repetitive Moffat is). Even if she is just a straight up villain I guess they will be incorporating some flirting anyway...

And heh yes I know, I recognized the shopping area street from my visit! ;) That is cool you saw them filming though!

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

What do you mean by "not a normal regeneration but a whole cycle?" The fact that he got unlimited regenerations from the TLs in the Christmas special? (Still annoyed they went with that instead of the line in the SJA epp). In any case, given how all of the other regenerations in New Who have gone (always knowing who he was with no disorientation, including the Master) they should have had at least one line in explanation (e.g. "This happens sometimes when he regenerates.")
Yes, he'd come to the end of his natural regenerative cycle and had a new cycle thrust upon him externally (no one said anything about that cycle being unlimited, as far as I recall) - that's not a normal regeneration. It figures it would be more difficult than others. I'm glad they used previously established canon for the regenerative cycle, rather than a throwaway line from spin-off media that was never intended to be taken seriously, it was just the Doctor throwing out a stupid answer to shut Clyde up. This was a return to a more classic regeneration, after which he was always various degrees of loopy - and bear in mind, the 10th Doctor may not have had the memory loss, but he did spend most of an episode unconscious, and the 11th was pretty mental post-regeneration as well. For a classic viewer like me, this was a more normal regeneration than the last two! It's all a matter of perspective. ;)

(And also there is the whole "I've seen all the regenerations" thing that doesn't gel with this reaction).

I ranted about that after the Christmas special and have now made my peace with it. It only seemed jarring because Moffat gave interviews claiming that Clara knows the Doctor better than anyone because she's met every version of him. On-screen, however, it's been clear that that isn't the case at all - she barely remembers her experience in his time-stream and has no memory of her splinter lives at all (such a waste of a storyline, no exploration of the impact and consequences at all - Moffat at his worst). The way I see it, she vaguely knows his other faces, like remembering a dream, but that doesn't give her any special understanding of how regeneration works, and didn't prepare her for how it would feel when it actually happened. I just liked that she was allowed to have a real human reaction to an experience, for once, instead of brushing it off and taking it in her stride like she has most things so far! She has desperately needed that kind of fleshing out.

I always dislike the Paternoster gang, so went into the episode prepared for that and therefore was able to find them slightly more tolerable than usual. I've made peace with the fact that I am always going to dislike them!

The best I can hope for the woman at the end is that she turns out to be the Rani, because she at least does have an actual on-screen history with the Doctor! It's more likely another Moffat creation, though - he has some clever ideas, but is bogged down by his lack of originality where characters are concerned.

Another fun fact: the tramp in the alley was played by Brian Miller, husband of the late Elisabeth Sladen. Bless.

[femsc.livejournal.com]

I'm going to watch it again in a bit because although in general I thought it was good, there were places where I wondered if I'd dozed off and missed a scene. Most of it was excellent. I enjoyed the tying up of some loose ends with Clara, and like you I felt she was more 'real' than she had been before. I'd rather leave Mary Poppins to Disney and have a believable person as a companion.

I think I'm going to like Capaldi as the Doctor. I like the fact that he's older and more mature. Smith was fun and manic, but too young for the role. Capaldi's maturity will, I think, give the Doctor a more rounded and darker character.

Why, when Madame Vastra appeared in Edwardian (or was it Victorian?) London without her veil, didn't those who saw her run away screaming? Or couldn't they see her at all?

Over all: 8/10

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

Why, when Madame Vastra appeared in Edwardian (or was it Victorian?) London without her veil, didn't those who saw her run away screaming? Or couldn't they see her at all?
Good question. This is part of the reason I struggle with the Paternoster Gang - I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that they could have existed in Victorian London. In-episode, though, Vastra explained that those who see her without her veil believe she has a bizarre skin condition, or something. I dunno. If we never revisit that particular trio again I'll be happy.

[femsc.livejournal.com]

Yes, because the Victorians were so forgiving of those who were 'different' in some way, weren't they! A lady looking like that would have been locked away or used as a money-making freak show exhibit. I suppose she could have the same attributes as Death, i.e. most people don't see her at all because their brains glaze over, but that possibility has never been mentioned.

Was the superintendent or whatever he was supposed to be meant to be some sort of Victorian precursor of the Brigadier? Or does the Paternoster gang have extra members we don't usually see? Too many questions; not enough answers. I like the idea of Dyffryn Gardens being Heaven, but who on earth is the somewhat menacing (predatory?) woman who welcomes the villain? I have a horrible feeling she's going to appear again - and I don't think I like her. I think the 'promised land' is going to give rise to the phrase "be careful what you wish for".

Oh yes, and when and where did Madame Vastra and Jenny get married? It can't possibly have been in Victorian London....

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

Now, I usually pay very little attention to the details of the Paternoster gang, because - as mentioned - I don't like them and they break my suspension of disbelief. But my understanding is that they are a crime-fighting team who often work in conjunction with the fledgling police force in London, providing tip-offs and the like. Hence their call to the superintendent person to come clean up the restaurant.

I know just enough about the Victorian era to know that individuals could be a lot more radical and forward-thinking than we give that culture credit for, but I still simply cannot believe that Vastra, Jenny and Strax could exist in that society. Maybe if we'd seen their origin story and understood how they all came to be together (well, we saw how Strax came to be with them, but the others) - maybe if we'd seen how Vastra came to awaken in a Victorian world and decide to accept it as her new home (instead of rejecting humans the way most of her kind have) and maybe if we'd seen how Jenny went from ordinary Victorian serving girl to badass ninja fighter wearing 21st century catsuits...maybe then I'd find it easier to accept them. But no. They were presented as a fait accomplit and have never been more than caricatures. So I can't believe in them or engage with them in any way. A lot of fans seem to love them because they are funny and are lesbians, but I need more than that. I need them to also be believable as people and they aren't.

Vastra and Jenny can't have got married in Victorian London, no. Maybe they had a private Silurian style ceremony and consider that enough?