victoriana? edwardiana? how to date, this is the question

[llywela]

Sorry for so many ancient photos lately, but does anyone out there know anything about the history of clothes? I'm trying to figure out exactly who these two are:

But the identification is woolly (my aunt thinks she remembers who her mum told her they were, 40 years ago, but we aren't sure if their clothes are right for their dates) and it would help if we could identify an approximate date based on their clothes. Any ideas?

There are a couple more pictures that might possibly be him, that aren't much help.


And I'm not sure if this is her again or not


I don't think many of my f-list are terribly active on LJ any more, but if anyone does happen to have any ideas about when these pictures might have been taken, based on the clothes, please do speak up!

Comments

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

I'm a member of Rootschat.co.uk and they have a forum that helps with identification of military uniforms. If you haven't got a definitive answer (I'm posting and running so I haven't read the replies yet!) I could post your picture there for you if you'd like. :)

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

That would be brilliant, Janet, if you don't mind. :)

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

Sure, no problem. :)

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure this is the right answer!

"WW1 era. I think you will find with that Tunic and titles that he is probably a Canadian soldier. He is not British.

The Canadian tunics had more buttons down the front. The belt is 'wrong' for a British soldier.

Hmmmm!

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

Sorry to bombard you with all these posts!

You probably know already, but Joseph Cooper and Penelope Emma Salmon were married in the 4th quarter of 1886.

They were both English - Joseph (a baker on the 1891 census) was born in Reading, Berkshire, and Penelope was born in Bristol! I was hoping Joseph might have been born in Canada - ah well!

On that census, every single person is down as being 'English' even if they were born in Wales! Oh dear!

Joseph was born 3rd quarter of 1864. In 1891 Joseph and Penelope, plus 3 children and one servant were living at 12 Diamond Street, Roath, Cardiff!

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm going to stop now (but you know how addictive genealogy is!) but I've had a look at Joseph on all the census returns from 1871 onwards. His father, William Cooper, was born in Middlesex.

However, on the 1911 census, under "nationality of every person born in a foreign country" next to Joseph's name it says "British Subject by Parent" - although it also says he was born in Reading, Berkshire, England on every single census - including this one.

Odd, huh?!

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

Hi Janet! Wow, you've done so much research on my behalf while I was off on my holidays all week - thank you :)

Joseph and Penelope were definitely both English, as your digging has told you, so if this is them, it definitely isn't a Canadian uniform. Their oldest son (born 1888) moved to Canada sometime in the 1910s/20s, though -we've had contact with his family through ancestry.co.uk. So could they be photos sent home by Henry after his emigration? But would he have joined the Canadian army so soon after emigrating? So many questions thrown up by the discovery of old photos, eh! You're right, it really is addictive!

The plot thickens...

Weird to think that Joseph and Penelope had a servant - their youngest child was my great-grandmother, who was about as far away from being able to keep servants as could be! She definitely married down!

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

No worries. I love genealogy and as you know yourself, its rather addictive!

It's really odd that two people from two separate forums have identified the uniform as Canadian?!

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

It does look a lot like the uniform on the right hand side of this page!

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/uniforms/uniform.htm

However, I've zoomed into the photo and on his collar badge it looks like the initials 'SWB' which could stand for South Wales Borderers (which would make sense!) - but the badge doesn't actually match the images on Google search, which shows a badge with a sphinx and the word Egypt on it! There is a museum for this regiment in Brecon somewhere

It also stands for 'silver war badge' which was given to soldiers who had served in the army but then had to retire, I believe. However I can't see anything that looks like that badge.

Maybe it doesn't say SWB at all!

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

Hi Jo

I posted on a forum dedicated to British army badges - the consensus there is also that he's probably in the Canadian Army!

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211018#post211018

One interesting reply...

If I'm correct he's Canadian - identified by the seven button SD Jacket and the fact he's wearing collar badges too - very unusual with British units at this time. On his shoulder strap he's wearing at the top something I can't see, followed possibly by the C.E.F. unit number and below that the title "CANADA" on a downward curving tablet.
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[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

My replies are all muddled up - oops - hope you can make head and tail of them!

[bagpuss1966.livejournal.com]

Another reply on the "British and Commonwealth Military Badge" forum!

"Hi, The soldier appears to be wearing the insignia for the 124th Bn Canadian Expeditionary Force. It was later redesignated the 124th Pioneer Battalion. The 124th was raised by the Governor General's Body Guard in the Toronto area.