Man, that was a monster! *g* But a really,really good one. Totally loveable. Heh. Excellent analysis of the brother's state of mind! ♥
While Sam has been drawn as Fabio Okay, I cave. I’ve read that a couple of times, but who the hell is Fabio?!
Sam thinks Dean is too cautious since his return from hell. Dean thinks Sam is not cautious enough since his time alone. Sam wants Dean to be more gung-ho. Dean wants Sam to be less gung-ho. It’s also a complete reversal from their PoVs in S3, where Dean felt he had nothing to lose and was the reckless one and Sam reigned him in for not being cautious enough. Nowadays Sam thinks he has nothing to lose and wants it to end by all means, no matter the cost, while Dean is the cautious one, because he thinks he might lose Sam, and this time for good.
Chuck sees something happening, and that is what makes it inevitable. Hm, not quite. As you said earlier, it happens because it already happened, from God’s point of view. It’s simply a record of something that already has come to pass, because God already has seen Dean making his choices. It’s not that it becomes inevitable, because Chuck has seen it (meaning Chuck seeing it manifests the course of action), but rather the other way round, Chuck sees it, because the choice has already been made.
Overall I’ve come to the conclusion that we have to make a distinction between prophecy and destiny/fate. The prophecy is the word of God, a prediction about what is going to happen, based on the fact that God is all-knowing. God has seen past, present and future, he knows how a person decides in a given situation, but that doesn't mean that he interferes with it or that the individual had no real choice in that decision. So, in a way the prophecy is simply a record of something God has already seen come to pass, relayed to an unknowing recipient, and as such it is completely in accordance with the postulate of free will. It’s also in accordance with the discrepancies we see in this episode between the written word and the vision Chuck receives, the human factor is an unstable factor in the prophecy, but that doesn’t change the accuracy of the prophecy itself.
Fate, on the other hand, states that no matter the choices, the end result will always be the same, rather than the end result being the logical conclusion of a certain choice. That’s what we see when Dean tries to avert the prophecy by doing everything opposite. In these instances the episode seems to say that prophecy and fate are the same thing and that's more difficult to consolidate with free will, and I think that’s the part where Supernatural becomes increasingly murky. Does that make sense? Man, this is confusing!
When he was alone with Chuck we saw his fear, but in front of Dean there is nothing but bravado. Ha, and if that isn’t all Dean I don’t know what is. Sam might not have always have the best grip on who his brother is, but that one he learned from the master! *g*
Does the power Ruby gives Sam wear off after a while? Well, that’s implied in Heaven and Hell, when Ruby tells Sam that his powers got flubby ever since he stopped drinking her blood. It seems that it is only temporary.
Stalemate. It is actually kind of awesome that these two are both so very powerful, and yet cancel one another out, so that their big showdown sees them reduced to trading verbal blows. Exactly! And that has to be where Dean comes into play, no? I figure he has to be the one how tips the scale and I can’t wait to find out how!
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2009-04-18 12:49 pm (UTC)While Sam has been drawn as Fabio
Okay, I cave. I’ve read that a couple of times, but who the hell is Fabio?!
Sam thinks Dean is too cautious since his return from hell. Dean thinks Sam is not cautious enough since his time alone. Sam wants Dean to be more gung-ho. Dean wants Sam to be less gung-ho.
It’s also a complete reversal from their PoVs in S3, where Dean felt he had nothing to lose and was the reckless one and Sam reigned him in for not being cautious enough. Nowadays Sam thinks he has nothing to lose and wants it to end by all means, no matter the cost, while Dean is the cautious one, because he thinks he might lose Sam, and this time for good.
Chuck sees something happening, and that is what makes it inevitable.
Hm, not quite. As you said earlier, it happens because it already happened, from God’s point of view. It’s simply a record of something that already has come to pass, because God already has seen Dean making his choices. It’s not that it becomes inevitable, because Chuck has seen it (meaning Chuck seeing it manifests the course of action), but rather the other way round, Chuck sees it, because the choice has already been made.
Overall I’ve come to the conclusion that we have to make a distinction between prophecy and destiny/fate. The prophecy is the word of God, a prediction about what is going to happen, based on the fact that God is all-knowing. God has seen past, present and future, he knows how a person decides in a given situation, but that doesn't mean that he interferes with it or that the individual had no real choice in that decision. So, in a way the prophecy is simply a record of something God has already seen come to pass, relayed to an unknowing recipient, and as such it is completely in accordance with the postulate of free will. It’s also in accordance with the discrepancies we see in this episode between the written word and the vision Chuck receives, the human factor is an unstable factor in the prophecy, but that doesn’t change the accuracy of the prophecy itself.
Fate, on the other hand, states that no matter the choices, the end result will always be the same, rather than the end result being the logical conclusion of a certain choice. That’s what we see when Dean tries to avert the prophecy by doing everything opposite. In these instances the episode seems to say that prophecy and fate are the same thing and that's more difficult to consolidate with free will, and I think that’s the part where Supernatural becomes increasingly murky. Does that make sense? Man, this is confusing!
When he was alone with Chuck we saw his fear, but in front of Dean there is nothing but bravado.
Ha, and if that isn’t all Dean I don’t know what is. Sam might not have always have the best grip on who his brother is, but that one he learned from the master! *g*
Does the power Ruby gives Sam wear off after a while?
Well, that’s implied in Heaven and Hell, when Ruby tells Sam that his powers got flubby ever since he stopped drinking her blood. It seems that it is only temporary.
Stalemate. It is actually kind of awesome that these two are both so very powerful, and yet cancel one another out, so that their big showdown sees them reduced to trading verbal blows.
Exactly! And that has to be where Dean comes into play, no? I figure he has to be the one how tips the scale and I can’t wait to find out how!