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llywelaNote#1: I often say of my recaps that 'this is the longest ever', but this time it's really, really true. This one turned into a monster. I hit 32 pages and had to stop myself editing any more! I'm so wordy.
Note#2: It is not easy to type when you have a kitten draped across the back of your neck because a) she wants to see what you are doing, and b) she thinks it's a really good place to sleep. I have no idea why she is so obsessed with the back of my neck, but she has been since the day I brought her home.
Okay, onto the recap - 32 pages of scene-by-scene analysis of the episode. Just how it got that long is anyone's guess. The more characters playing an active role, the wordier I get...
To read the recap, just click the link:
"If we're going down, we're going down together."
Caps by Screencaps Paradise and![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
marishna
Congratulations to anyone who manages to get through the entire novella!
Note#2: It is not easy to type when you have a kitten draped across the back of your neck because a) she wants to see what you are doing, and b) she thinks it's a really good place to sleep. I have no idea why she is so obsessed with the back of my neck, but she has been since the day I brought her home.
Okay, onto the recap - 32 pages of scene-by-scene analysis of the episode. Just how it got that long is anyone's guess. The more characters playing an active role, the wordier I get...
To read the recap, just click the link:
"If we're going down, we're going down together."
Caps by Screencaps Paradise and
marishnaCongratulations to anyone who manages to get through the entire novella!
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no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 09:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 09:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-10-12 04:59 am (UTC)Did you see tonights ep??? I already did my review but I LOVED this ep and can't wait for yours!!!!!
no subject
Date: 2007-10-12 01:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 12:11 pm (UTC)I liked that you put so much focus on the hunters in this episode because the more often I watched the episode, the more I found myself troubled with their harsh and compassion-less attitude and the episode does put Tamara and Isaac (and Ruby, if she is a hunter) in the same league as Gordon. The differences between Sam&Dean and all other full-time hunters we have encountered so far is so striking. How Sam and Dean managed to keep their integrity and humanity over all those years is amazing.
Each of them got drawn into the business by huge personal losses and I like to think that none of them were bad people in the first place, but they got hardened by their sacrifices and their gruesome line of work, to a point of being almost inhuman. Which reminds me of how Sam accused Dean of the same attitude in 'Croatoan' and in the end it is probably their bond that preserves them to loose it like that, both of them there to remind the other one of what's important over the long haul. Anyways, the more we see of the hunters, the more I understand John's unwillingness to bring the boys into it. Sometimes he did make right choices after all! LOL
I also very much loved your referral to Dante's definition of the sin of Lust. I've never heard that before and it kind of hits Dean's character right on the head, lovely detail!
Maybe it depends on the nature of the demon? Like the more powerful the demon, the more tightly it clings on, and the more damage it does? Or maybe it does all rest on the intent of the person conducting the exorcism?
The way the exorcism killed the guy was bothering me all the time as well. The YED, although extremely powerful, left John's body on its own account, so maybe that's why he didn't do any damage there. But the Meg demon even locked herself into Sam's body, intent on taking Sam with her in the end, because she wanted to hurt Dean after all, so her exorcism surely should've killed Sam. *confused* So I think the writers indeed intended to make a point about the differences between Sam and Dean and other hunters here.
It's actually a pretty major step forward for Dean, in many respects, that he feels entitled to be a bit selfish, that he's allowing himself to make such a huge choice, to have what he wants, for himself.
Heh, I was thinking about Dean's decision when I watched 'Pushing Daisies' the other day, where the lead character opts for saving a loved one from death, even if it meant for someone else to die and he later admits that he did something unselfish for entirely selfish reasons. Sometimes decisions like that are not morally clear cut, but completely understandable psychologically.
I was thinking about something else in that regard as well: Will they kind of pick up the question they didn't dare to confront Sam with in 'Faith'? Would Sam be willing to kill someone in order to save Dean? I am not sure if I will like the answer to that question!
no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 12:28 pm (UTC)You mean 'long', right? *G*
I liked that you put so much focus on the hunters in this episode because the more often I watched the episode, the more I found myself troubled with their harsh and compassion-less attitude and the episode does put Tamara and Isaac (and Ruby, if she is a hunter) in the same league as Gordon. The differences between Sam&Dean and all other full-time hunters we have encountered so far is so striking. How Sam and Dean managed to keep their integrity and humanity over all those years is amazing.
You know What's crazy? That those hunters are such a weak spot in the episode just because of the acting, but when writing about them they turned out to be chock-full of rich character work to chew over!
Interesting point about Sam and Dean being a team to keep each other honest. Having the boys must have helped with that for John. And yet...Isaac and Tamara had each other, but that only served to intensify their hatred, perhaps winding one another up rather than providing balance. Bobby seems to be all alone, but retains his moral compass. See, this kind of thing makes the wider hunting world really interesting to explore!
your referral to Dante's definition of the sin of Lust. I've never heard that before and it kind of hits Dean's character right on the head, lovely detail!
I confess, I looked up the seven deadly sins on wikipedia just to check that I had all the names right, but saw the Dante reference there and was really struck by it, as it fitted Dean so exactly!
Will they kind of pick up the question they didn't dare to confront Sam with in 'Faith'? Would Sam be willing to kill someone in order to save Dean? I am not sure if I will like the answer to that question!
It's that question that's helped me come to terms with the Ruby scene, because I'm leaning more and more toward the idea that the scene is intended to show off the knife rather than Ruby herself. That knife is going to be important...maybe for dealing with that very moral issue?
Roll on the rest of the season!
no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 12:44 pm (UTC)Is there a difference? *g*
See, this kind of thing makes the wider hunting world really interesting to explore!
It surely is. Reflecting these issues back onto Sam and Dean makes it interesting, as long as it doesn't take up too much space. With the new characters and more involvement of Bobby, we will have to take cut-backs on Sam'n'Dean screentime, as this episode clearly showed already and there's only so much I am willing to adapt to before I get frustrated LOL.
It's that question that's helped me come to terms with the Ruby scene, because I'm leaning more and more toward the idea that the scene is intended to show off the knife rather than Ruby herself. That knife is going to be important...maybe for dealing with that very moral issue?
I really hope so, although I am still thinking having yet another wonder weapon like the Colt feels a bit repetitive and like a bit of a cheat-out. I'd prefer it if they come up with something more original, killing the YED with the Colt and then having the RED (oh how I love these acronyms *g*) killed by the Blade would just be too easy I think. *shrugs*
no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 01:37 pm (UTC)No, really? *G*
I really hope so, although I am still thinking having yet another wonder weapon like the Colt feels a bit repetitive and like a bit of a cheat-out. I'd prefer it if they come up with something more original, killing the YED with the Colt and then having the RED (oh how I love these acronyms *g*) killed by the Blade would just be too easy I think. *shrugs*
Hmm. I can't decide yet, the season being only one episode old, how likely it is that this knife will be important in dealing with the...RED? CRD? Her. But I do think the moral issues that would come into play if Sam even considered using it to free Dean would be interesting to explore! It's one thing to take out a deadly enemy in the heat of battle, even if you know an innocent victim will die along with them. It's quite another to plan it.
So...maybe not the strongest season opener ever, but it certainly has set up a lot of potentially intriguing subplots for the season ahead.
no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 01:52 pm (UTC)Ohh, I am right there with you! This question about how far Sam is willing to go to save Dean goes round and round in my head for weeks now! The unbelievable moral murkiness that would come with it is intriguing and frightening all at the same time. Not to mention the utter devastation Dean would feel if again someone else had to give their life to keep him alive. God, the fall-out this could have for their relationship! *shudders and is terrified of what's to come*
no subject
Date: 2007-10-11 02:03 pm (UTC)Seems like the kind of issue that's more likely to be flirted with, perhaps, than to actually drive a wedge between the boys.
YEEEEESSSSS! pt.1
Date: 2007-10-11 04:52 pm (UTC)Sharing his good mood, or perhaps subtly, subconsciously even, checking that Sam is still there.
Heh...I like that latter thought. So much of Dean in this episode is the combination of both pushing his limits with Sam (much like a 12-year-old to a parent) and the Dean!Logical combination of pushing Sam away while wanting to hear Sam confirm that he's not going anywhere...because he can't stand the idea that he's sacrificed himself for nothing (i.e., Sam dying again), but he also needs and craves the affirmation of Sam's presence.
There is no way this exact scenario has not played out at least once, if not many times, before now, not when they've always lived at such close quarters, and not with the two of them being who they are. Which makes it all the more amusing that Sam still reacts like this.
I'm not sure if I agree with that completely....one usually gets the sense that if Dean's going to "go home" with a girl, he's going to *her* place. On the rare occasion that that's not possible and/or he doesn't just take her somewhere in the vicinity (the car, a back alley....ahem), I would think he's usually considerate enough to either spring for a separate room or simply send Sam off somewhere. A separate room actually makes sense - they're not paying for it for real, after all, and that way the young ladies in question would not see all the hunting paraphernalia to get themselves all freaked out by this handsome psycho who's now going to chop off their body parts and/or simply blow holes in them.
Besides, you can't tell me that in all their time growing up, Dean never learned to put a sock on the doorknob?
My first reaction is surprise that he's voicing that issue so freely and openly, indifferently even, especially since he and Sam have been dancing around it up till now, so carefully not saying the words out loud to one another. But he says it almost challengingly, as if daring Bobby – or Sam – to call him on his attitude, to complain about either what he's doing or what he's done.
Yes, yes, YES. It took me aback at first, too, but then I thought, "No, this is Dean. This is deliberate belligerence in order to deflect any real conversation getting through."
Once upon a time, the prospect of exacting revenge upon the Yellow-Eyed Demon meant for Sam the moment he'd be able to return to some kind of normal life, but now that it has finally happened, walking away couldn't be further from his mind. Everything has changed since Shadow, Sam's outlook on life perhaps most of all.
See, I'm a Dean girl. Through and though. And yet I can't help loving Sam and looking forward to what he's going to do next - I think Sam might finally become interesting (more interesting) this season.
Re: YEEEEESSSSS! pt.1
Date: 2007-10-11 05:11 pm (UTC)Ah, come on. Sam has to have inadvertently walked in at least once while they were growing up - learning to put the sock on the doorknob would grow out of that *G*
I'm a Dean girl through and through as well, but I love Sam more and more as he grows and matures.
Pt. 2
Date: 2007-10-11 05:15 pm (UTC)Totally - like he's tasting skunk on his tongue... and also this is canon proof that his glib velvety smoothness works even without visual contact....Snerk.
Dean winds Sam up like this so often, and Sam falls for it every time. He never seems to remember that Dean can generally manage to flirt with pretty women and still work the job at the same time. Sam starts to remind Dean about the dead body and possible demon attack, and Dean starts pretending to cough....Sam backs down immediately, whereupon Dean beams at him, faux-coughing fit immediately over. And it's kind of jarring, because that's the second time now that Dean has brought up the fact that he only has a year to live, and it doesn't seem all that in character for him to rub it in for Sam in this way, guilt-tripping him so ruthlessly, when he knows from bitter experience how devastating it feels to be on the receiving end of a deal like that. He'd never have forgiven anyone who made a joke of what John sacrificed for his sake.
But maybe that's the point.
Okay, words cannot express how much I love you for putting this in perspective like this. Yes - that's *EXACTLY* the point as far as Dean is concerned. Business as usual, and his business is to trip his little brother up so Sam can't make Dean face the implications of his deal. It's the preemptive strike that puts the opponent on the defensive.
But another thing I think is going on, and I don't think you addressed it in quite so many words, is as I said the whole *pushing his envelope* thing. Like the cheeseburger, it's like Dean is *daring* Sam to get pissed at him. "Am I annoying you? How about now? Okay, how about now?" Because not only is he trying to act more normal than normal, he's trying to push SAM into acting normal again. As well as, you know, really wanting to test whether Sam will give up on him. But that's on a deeper level, and I don't think he's even begun to understand that about himself. Right now, I think it's more about understanding the limits of his newest guilt-trip ammunition. And, y'know, that whole AVOIDANCE thing.
This is a man who would never willingly come out and say, 'oh God, I was completely destroyed by your death, and I'm so happy just to have you alive again, no matter what it cost', so he expresses that sentiment by teasing his brother mercilessly. Means the same thing, right?
Yes, Dean. Yes, it does. It so totally does. That and when you give a girl a worm to show you like her. God, you're so TWELVE.
No harshing on my squee for Bobby in a suit. Suit!Bobby wins. I'm saying.
Bobby drives his car right through the door before the celebrating demons can turn on Tamara. And this is why they came here in Bobby's car rather than the Impala: for the sake of this scene. Dean would not want to plough his baby through a wall like that, not again, after Sam already did it in the Pilot.
That, and there's no room in the trunk for a body with the weapons locker in there. (Though I'm fairly certain Dean's had bodies in there...in Croatoan, for example, I thought he'd put Mr. Tanner in the trunk.)
Nobody ever gets Dean's humour or film references, and yet he persists with them.
Hm. In this case I think it's just because it's SOOOO inappropriate. 12. (Though it's stuff like this that make Michael Weatherly's comment about his character Tony Dinozo so fun....)
Re: Pt. 2
Date: 2007-10-11 05:31 pm (UTC)Totally.
that's *EXACTLY* the point as far as Dean is concerned. Business as usual, and his business is to trip his little brother up so Sam can't make Dean face the implications of his deal. It's the preemptive strike that puts the opponent on the defensive.
But another thing I think is going on, and I don't think you addressed it in quite so many words, is as I said the whole *pushing his envelope* thing. Like the cheeseburger, it's like Dean is *daring* Sam to get pissed at him. "Am I annoying you? How about now? Okay, how about now?" Because not only is he trying to act more normal than normal, he's trying to push SAM into acting normal again. As well as, you know, really wanting to test whether Sam will give up on him. But that's on a deeper level, and I don't think he's even begun to understand that about himself. Right now, I think it's more about understanding the limits of his newest guilt-trip ammunition. And, y'know, that whole AVOIDANCE thing.
Dean's complexes have complexes, no? I think even he has no idea what's going on in his own head half the time. He just reacts.
Suit!Bobby wins at life and is all kinds of awesome. But he looks every bit as uncomfortable in the suit as Dean always does in his. I like the way you're thinking about deliberately pushing Sam's buttons so that his brother will start imposing limits again, because he needs the security of things being what passes for normal.
Um...yeah, they did manage to stuff a body in the trunk in Croatoan, asI recall. Actually, I think half the point of using Bobby's car was so Sam could shove the seat forward with Dean in it, Impala being 4-door, so it takes a different car for that visual gag to be possible. And the other half was to drive it through the door. *G*
Dean does love his inappropriate humour. Every time he can, no matter that he gets the same reaction every time. LOL
pt. 3
Date: 2007-10-11 05:16 pm (UTC)AWESOME points about Bobby and how he deals with Tamara differently owing to his recent experience with Dean.
I really wish they'd all lay off with blaming the Intrepid Trio for releasing all those demons, though. They didn't.
Well...I see your point. But I can also see why everyone else is looking for a convenient "Ground Zero" team to blame. And there's still the rumour that Sam is teh ebbil, so yeah, I can see this coming up and the boys butting up against a bad reputation for a while.
Incidentally, I believe that "Fat, Drunk and Stupid" is sloth and the other chick is Greed. IMDB confirms this: "Heavy-set Man / Sloth" and "Waitress/Greed" are the cast listings.
"That didn't last long," Dean mildly observes, which amuses me way more than it should, because it's so very true. Sam trying to indulge Dean without question or complaint and give back a little of everything his brother has done for him over the years has lasted all of one week.
And see, that's confirmation for me that Dean was deliberately pushing in part to see how far he could go. How outrageous he could be, before Sam reined him in. Because IMO, *Dean* now needs *Sam* to be his anchor, just like Sam needed Dean
all his lifelast season.It's actually a pretty major step forward for Dean, in many respects, that he feels entitled to be a bit selfish, that he's allowing himself to make such a huge choice, to have what he wants, for himself.
It would be, if I believed him for an instant.
Awesome recap - and I can see why it had to be so long. There's a LOT going on in this episode.
Re: pt. 3
Date: 2007-10-11 05:41 pm (UTC)Oh, but I think I got a couple of sentences in the wrong place in my last reply, so apologies for that. Brain has gone to mush.
I can also see why everyone else is looking for a convenient "Ground Zero" team to blame. And there's still the rumour that Sam is teh ebbil, so yeah, I can see this coming up and the boys butting up against a bad reputation for a while.
I can see why they'd be blamed. But it will annoy me every time nonetheless, because those other hunters have got no clue what happened. I'm interested to see if there is going to be kickback for Bobby, as he is so very loyal to the boys,
Incidentally, I believe that "Fat, Drunk and Stupid" is sloth and the other chick is Greed. IMDB confirms this: "Heavy-set Man / Sloth" and "Waitress/Greed" are the cast listings.
Sloth and Greed were the two I was most unsure about, and just had to guess. I figured Greed made more sense for the fat guy - the demons did seem to enjoy finding hosts who fitted their individual profiles - but Sloth fits him as well. *shrug*
And see, that's confirmation for me that Dean was deliberately pushing in part to see how far he could go. How outrageous he could be, before Sam reined him in. Because IMO, *Dean* now needs *Sam* to be his anchor, just like Sam needed Dean all his life last season.
Again, I like the way you think on this.
It would be, if I believed him for an instant.
I do think he genuinely can see that he's entitled to be a bit selfish and is allowing himself to take a little something of what he wants for once, but it's still all mixed up with all those other issues and with the guilt and despair of 'letting' Sam get killed in the first place. He's allowing himself to take what he wants, believes he deserves to be selfish about this specific thing because this specific thing is also about Sam, and about setting things straight, which means that what he wants and what he sees as only right and proper are actually coinciding, in this dark and twisted kind of way.
Such a damaged soul. Psychiatrist would have a field day and then retire with nervous exhaustion!
There's a LOT going on in this episode.
There really is! Not necessarily apparent on first viewing, but whoa, there's a lot of subtext crammed into it. It's going to be an awesome season.
Thanks for replying in such detail!
Re: pt. 3
Date: 2007-10-11 06:41 pm (UTC)I do think he genuinely can see that he's entitled to be a bit selfish and is allowing himself to take a little something of what he wants for once, but it's still all mixed up with all those other issues and with the guilt and despair of 'letting' Sam get killed in the first place. He's allowing himself to take what he wants, believes he deserves to be selfish about this specific thing because this specific thing is also about Sam, and about setting things straight, which means that what he wants and what he sees as only right and proper are actually coinciding, in this dark and twisted kind of way.
Yes, I mean, deep, deep down, I think he does have some self-indulgence stored up and he's letting loose with it, now that their 22-year quest is OVAR. But I agree with you completely: It's mixed up with all the other things going on in the crazy kid's head of his... and in this case, I think it's the *easy* answer, the belligerent, the defensive, the "get out of my face" answer that by its very aggression seeks to put the conversation aside. It's "Fuck Off" without being quite so dismissive. And of course, it pushes the GUILT button for Sam, which has historically been one of the more effective ways of getting Sam to cave. Only Sam's not really buying it this time - he's temporarily letting it slide.
This is going to be a rocking season, I think - for all the reasons you cited in the recap and more. Squee!
Re: polling the electorate
Date: 2007-10-12 06:31 pm (UTC)All Jared's fault for slurring his words, of course *G*
no subject
Date: 2007-10-16 12:26 pm (UTC)You are doing and incredibly hard work *hugs you*
no subject
Date: 2007-10-16 01:28 pm (UTC)Recapping is kinda time-consuming, but I never feel I've fully appreciated all the nuances in an episodes until I've done it! Plus, I just like having all my thoughts and reactions written down so I can refer back to them later. *G*