llywela | victoriana? edwardiana? how to date, this is the question

Entry tags:

victoriana? edwardiana? how to date, this is the question

Sorry for so many ancient photos lately, but does anyone out there know anything about the history of clothes? I'm trying to figure out exactly who these two are:

But the identification is woolly (my aunt thinks she remembers who her mum told her they were, 40 years ago, but we aren't sure if their clothes are right for their dates) and it would help if we could identify an approximate date based on their clothes. Any ideas?

There are a couple more pictures that might possibly be him, that aren't much help.

And I'm not sure if this is her again or not

I don't think many of my f-list are terribly active on LJ any more, but if anyone does happen to have any ideas about when these pictures might have been taken, based on the clothes, please do speak up!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm guessing WWI uniform for the first picture - or at least not much earlier, because I think the woman's wearing a wristwatch, which apparently weren't popular until the 1920s? Cf this chap perhaps, in a very general way - the pocketing and similar braid through his epaulette... Hmmn - the IWM site suggests that it may have been a lanyard, which were worn by officers, and because it's khaki coloured rather than white (as in the other picture, I think), it suggests he was on active service... I think he looks like he's wearing puttees, which were apparently worn from the early 1900s..? But I'm afraid I'm making it all up from random googling tonight, just cos your pictures got me curious! *g* His collar's interesting too - scroll down this forum and a woman was wondering about a similar-looking collar on a c1916 photo...

Thanks! Yeah, early 1900s-1910s was our best guess, which means they probably can't be who my aunt thought they were, which is her grandmother's parents, as they were born 1865/7 and would have been in their 30s-40s by the 1900s. This couple look a bit too young. Unless they were just really well preserved? It's so hard to be sure! Especially since there really aren't that many other possibilities for them, given which branches of the family have photos of them.

Genealogy is like being a detective!

I tried comparing their clothes to those on some of my old photos but it didn't help much. I thought the army uniform could have been a bit older than WWI but only one of my relatives is in WWI uniform so that didn't help the comparison much.
Genealogy satisfies my inner detective; I love nothing more than tracking down - or not, in quite a few cases - the minor details. :)

Carol

Me too! Mum and I have done so much research, and we're forever getting sidetracked off onto tangents just because they're interesting...

This is a branch we've not done a huge deal of research for, though, and our ancestry membership is elapsed currently. Like I mentioned below, our chief suspects for this couple are Joseph and Penelope Cooper, but if the photos were taken any later than 1910 I'd say they are too young to be them. If we date them as 1900-1910 it might be, though - could they be in their 30s? He could be, certainly.

As I said (and everyone else is saying), it's definitely early 20th C and not 19th C - I'd say 1910s as well. Her skirt and blouse just aren't in the more restrictive style of the preceding decades. But there are lots of clues here that someone more knowledgeable could look at. And she is displaying that watch prominently - that must mean something.

I used to (well still do, I just haven't been around lately) belong to Your Family Tree forum, and all the major UK mags have one, too. You could try joining one and asking - they often have some experts hanging around as well.

Is there any studio marks on the reverse or anything? Sometimes you can look them up in street directories to see when they were in operation, too.

Or you could send a copy into one of the mags and see what happens.

They're lovely photos though - you are very lucky to be getting such a treasure trove coming through!

Thanks for all the thoughts!

The individual shots are clearly older and very similar in style to others we have that date to around 1900 - the photography studio has its mark on those, so I could do a bit more digging there. It's the two photos of them as a pair that I'm more curious about; I'm almost certain it's the same man, and he looks older in the one than the other - her clothes are a lot more buttoned up in the earlier one, as well.

So maybe it is Joseph and Penelope, photos taken sometime 1900-1910. They'd have been 35 and 33 in 1900, 45 and 43 in 1910 - looking at the photos, he could certainly be in his 30s-40s, it's her I'm not sure of - but she could be, I suppose. I'm not sure who else they can be - it's definitely my dad's dad's side of the family, as my granddad and his sister both had photos of them. And we've got photographic evidence for the Browning side of the family, so they have to be Coopers, surely.

I might try investigating them in a bit more detail, find out if he's listed in any regiments or something - that might help!

I'd say the couple were the same in both photos, a few years apart.
I have a family picture with children on which means I can fairly reliably date it to around 1917. My Ggrandfather would have been 50ish but could quite easily be taken for younger, but overall I seem to find people back then looked older than their years.

Good idea to research regiments though; the badges on his collar might be helpful.

Carol

I'm a member of Rootschat.co.uk and they have a forum that helps with identification of military uniforms. If you haven't got a definitive answer (I'm posting and running so I haven't read the replies yet!) I could post your picture there for you if you'd like. :)

That would be brilliant, Janet, if you don't mind. :)

Sure, no problem. :)

I'm not sure this is the right answer!

"WW1 era. I think you will find with that Tunic and titles that he is probably a Canadian soldier. He is not British.

The Canadian tunics had more buttons down the front. The belt is 'wrong' for a British soldier.

Hmmmm!

Sorry to bombard you with all these posts!

You probably know already, but Joseph Cooper and Penelope Emma Salmon were married in the 4th quarter of 1886.

They were both English - Joseph (a baker on the 1891 census) was born in Reading, Berkshire, and Penelope was born in Bristol! I was hoping Joseph might have been born in Canada - ah well!

On that census, every single person is down as being 'English' even if they were born in Wales! Oh dear!

Joseph was born 3rd quarter of 1864. In 1891 Joseph and Penelope, plus 3 children and one servant were living at 12 Diamond Street, Roath, Cardiff!

Edited 2013-04-28 16:20 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to stop now (but you know how addictive genealogy is!) but I've had a look at Joseph on all the census returns from 1871 onwards. His father, William Cooper, was born in Middlesex.

However, on the 1911 census, under "nationality of every person born in a foreign country" next to Joseph's name it says "British Subject by Parent" - although it also says he was born in Reading, Berkshire, England on every single census - including this one.

Odd, huh?!

Hi Janet! Wow, you've done so much research on my behalf while I was off on my holidays all week - thank you :)

Joseph and Penelope were definitely both English, as your digging has told you, so if this is them, it definitely isn't a Canadian uniform. Their oldest son (born 1888) moved to Canada sometime in the 1910s/20s, though -we've had contact with his family through ancestry.co.uk. So could they be photos sent home by Henry after his emigration? But would he have joined the Canadian army so soon after emigrating? So many questions thrown up by the discovery of old photos, eh! You're right, it really is addictive!

The plot thickens...

Weird to think that Joseph and Penelope had a servant - their youngest child was my great-grandmother, who was about as far away from being able to keep servants as could be! She definitely married down!

No worries. I love genealogy and as you know yourself, its rather addictive!

It's really odd that two people from two separate forums have identified the uniform as Canadian?!

It does look a lot like the uniform on the right hand side of this page!

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/uniforms/uniform.htm

However, I've zoomed into the photo and on his collar badge it looks like the initials 'SWB' which could stand for South Wales Borderers (which would make sense!) - but the badge doesn't actually match the images on Google search, which shows a badge with a sphinx and the word Egypt on it! There is a museum for this regiment in Brecon somewhere

It also stands for 'silver war badge' which was given to soldiers who had served in the army but then had to retire, I believe. However I can't see anything that looks like that badge.

Maybe it doesn't say SWB at all!

Hi Jo

I posted on a forum dedicated to British army badges - the consensus there is also that he's probably in the Canadian Army!

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211018#post211018

One interesting reply...

If I'm correct he's Canadian - identified by the seven button SD Jacket and the fact he's wearing collar badges too - very unusual with British units at this time. On his shoulder strap he's wearing at the top something I can't see, followed possibly by the C.E.F. unit number and below that the title "CANADA" on a downward curving tablet.
Reply With Quote

My replies are all muddled up - oops - hope you can make head and tail of them!

Another reply on the "British and Commonwealth Military Badge" forum!

"Hi, The soldier appears to be wearing the insignia for the 124th Bn Canadian Expeditionary Force. It was later redesignated the 124th Pioneer Battalion. The 124th was raised by the Governor General's Body Guard in the Toronto area.

The first one's Edwardian, I think, based on her dress, and the last one is almost definitely Victorian- those bangs are a giveaway. The rest I'm not sure.

I found this site which might help you trace the regiment.
http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk

Carol

Thank you, you are wonderful. :)

So much research to do, when I get back from my holidays.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

victoriana? edwardiana? how to date, this is the question

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject